Greta Gerwig "turning up the volume"

[Frank Cox]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/enter...ter/index.html

“I went around to different theaters and sort of stood in the back, and would then also turn up the volume if I felt it wasn’t playing at the perfect level,” she said at a panel talk at the BFI London Film Festival

*boggle*

Since when does J. P. Shmoe (or Greta Gerwig) get to walk right into the projection room and turn up the volume?

Anyone who tried that here would find themselves standing on the street in pretty short order.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Exactly! I have an SPL meter on my phone to check that, and she should too if she is serious about conveying any serious info. It's pretty accurate as compared to my old single mic spectrum analyzer, but I calibrated it so it read more or less the same at 85. The AMC's around here keep trying to make people go deaf. Have seen it peak at around 130 dB, but only for short times.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'd ask her: Oh, really? So you know what a Dolby CPx50 looks like?!

[Chris Haller]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/09/enter...ter/index.html


Since when does J. P. Shmoe (or Greta Gerwig) get to walk right into the projection room and turn up the volume?

Anyone who tried that here would find themselves standing on the street in pretty short order.

I suspect she, like anyone with common sense and respect for the craft, asked the theater operators and made sure what she was doing was comfortable with them. She's just enthusiastic.

[Frank Angel]

My first time in a commercial booth as an apprentice in Huston TX (cir. 1962), I was being trained by a sweet old union guy (I use "old" loosely -- he probably was much younger than I am today) in this beautiful old single screen 1800 seater. He finally let me run a few shows with him in the booth, then came the day I was on my own. The place had the traditional accouterments that were common back then, the works -- movable masking, curtain warmers (lights), curtains (yes, CURTAINS, back then you weren't as serious contender if you didn't have them), etc. so that is where I began and I was in 7th heaven. There was a shoebox size metal box beside each projector with only one thing on it -- a quite sizable volume control about 3 inches in diameter and markings on the box 1 to 10. On my first show, I was just happy the image got on the screen and I heard sound. By day two I had become the confident, cocky projectionist, secretly terrified of the Ashcraft arcs. After the attraction/cartoon reel ran out, I make my change-over, did the curtain warmers up-masking change-curtain open-dowser open routine and hit screen with the first frame. It's a Fox/scope title (can't remember exactly which although it may have been FIVE WEEKS IN A BALLON) and at the Fox logo, I instinctively reach over to the big volume control and turn it up a couple of dents, just for the logo music. This control did have physical notches so you knew exactly what number you were at; for each successive show, I would do the same.

Then the last show of the day comes around, I have my hand on that big volume control and as I turn it up, I feel resistance., What is this, I wonder, so I force it up the three ticks as I had been doing all day. As soon as I take my had off it, I see it go back down three. I turn it back up, and as if my by magic, I see itt go back down again on its own! I am both amazed and seriously perplexed. The next day my mentor is back and I am hesitant to even mention that the volume control has a life of it's own, either that or there is a ghost in this old booth. Finally I do mention it kind of casually, and he says I must be smoking that funny weed, which, by the way, is not allowed in the booth. He said to show him what I was talking about. So start of the next show, I did exactly what I had done before. This time the control didn't move. He asked me if I smoke any of that funny weed, which, btw, he added, is not ever allowed in the booth. No, of course I don't smoke it ...at least not in the booth. He said I must have imagined it. He said, think about it, how can a volume control move by itself? After a few minutes, he began to chuckle, and then laugh. He finally says he was going to let me think I was crazy, but he couldn't hold it in. He said the volume control was geared to selsyn motors with an identical volume control box in the storage room in the back of the house. The manager could adjust the volume at will. So back then, they didn't even need to come up to the booth, they could mess with the levels any time they wanted. He asked me if changed the level for every show at the logo music? Yes, and at the start of the WWB MMerry Melodies cartoon. Then he said, "Yankee boy, you got it in your blood,"

Whereas today, we do a B chain system calibration, and we wish we could to pour that carbonite stuff that Han Solo was frozen in, all over the controls. Back then, "0db reference" could change from studio to studio and from film to film. We used to see in the leaders stuff like, Play this film 6db louder than normal for this theatre. And not only that, in those barn size theatres, the required volume level in a full house compared to a 1/4th capacity house would be significantly different. And then add to that, the reality that there is no set "reference level" for each individual. Hearing acuity varies wildly from person to person, so it follows, a "comfortable" sound level likewise varies wildly from person to person. I sat in our local LieMAX theatre in Brooklyn recently and in the fight//chase/explosions sequences mixed witgh the equally loud score, I'd look over at the woman friend I was with and she had her hands over both ears, whilst I sat happily thinking, "yah, this sounds great...this is gonad vibrating perfect." I seems unrealistic not to allow volume setting to be adjusted, as they say, to taste.

Still, entering the holy inner sanction of a projection booth and messing with controls in the days when there actually were projectionists in the booths, could be a dangerous proposition. Bring one of those chairs the lion tamers use when entering the cage.

[Mark Ogden]

I used to work in a single screen theatre where the door to the booth was right off the balcony. Every once in a while someone would knock on the door and ask me to turn the volume up. I would always go "Oh sure, gimme a second," and then close the door and count to ten, then open the door again and ask the guy if that was better. Invariably they would go "Yes, thanks!" and go back to their seat.

[Leo Enticknap]

I smell BS on this.

During my time at the Egyptian I regularly projected screenings with A-list actors and directors in attendance. Typically what would happen is that studio tech checkers would be there first thing in the morning, and if it was a really high profile event, one of Dolby's best guys (more often than not one of the Meissner Bros) would be sent in to tune. When all this was done, it occasionally (but not often) happened that the filmmaker him/herself would want a preview: usually just of a few minutes, but rarely of the entire show. If the filmmaker was in any way unhappy with the pix or sound, this would be communicated to me via the studio techs and/or the talent's assistant(s). I can recall only two occasions in which the A-lister actually entered the booth, both of them to thank me.

Of course, in a premiere downtown house playing a festival or gala screening, the fader was at reference, which is almost never the case in a suburban 'plex. But even in the middle of Hollywood, there would almost always be a few customer complaints that the sound was too loud. This is why you almost never find a suburban 'plex with the fader above 5.5 to 6.

What did happen, quite frequently, was that a filmmaker would want the volume cranked up above reference, but it was never an A-lister. We had one rental for the launch of a documentary about Curt Cobain, the director of whom demanded that the fader be maxed out to 10. I diplomatically replied that I'd need my manager to take responsibility for any blown amp channels or speaker drivers that might result, or the likely violation of CA law (no employee can be exposed to 92dBC or above for more than eight minutes in any eight hours without being provided with protective equipment). The manager gave his OK, and for the first and only time in my life, I cranked the fader all the way to 10.

Incredibly, when we played pink through every channel (and in the case of the tri-amped stage speakers, every driver individually) at the end of the night with the auditorium empty, everything had survived without damage. That movie was so ridiculously loud that I could actually hear the lyrics he was screeching through the booth wall, with no monitor speaker at all - and that was a recently rebuilt booth wall, to nitrate specifications!

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

I smell BS on this.

During my time at the Egyptian I regularly projected screenings with A-list actors and directors in attendance. Typically what would happen is that studio tech checkers would be there first thing in the morning, and if it was a really high profile event, one of Dolby's best guys (more often than not one of the Meissner Bros) would be sent in to tune. When all this was done, it occasionally (but not often) happened that the filmmaker him/herself would want a preview: usually just of a few minutes, but rarely of the entire show. If the filmmaker was in any way unhappy with the pix or sound, this would be communicated to me via the studio techs and/or the talent's assistant(s). I can recall only two occasions in which the A-lister actually entered the booth, both of them to thank me.

Of course, in a premiere downtown house playing a festival or gala screening, the fader was at reference, which is almost never the case in a suburban 'plex. But even in the middle of Hollywood, there would almost always be a few customer complaints that the sound was too loud. This is why you almost never find a suburban 'plex with the fader above 5.5 to 6.

What did happen, quite frequently, was that a filmmaker would want the volume cranked up above reference, but it was never an A-lister. We had one rental for the launch of a documentary about Curt Cobain, the director of whom demanded that the fader be maxed out to 10. I diplomatically replied that I'd need my manager to take responsibility for any blown amp channels or speaker drivers that might result, or the likely violation of CA law (no employee can be exposed to 92dBC or above for more than eight minutes in any eight hours without being provided with protective equipment). The manager gave his OK, and for the first and only time in my life, I cranked the fader all the way to 10.

Incredibly, when we played pink through every channel (and in the case of the tri-amped stage speakers, every driver individually) at the end of the night with the auditorium empty, everything had survived without damage. That movie was so ridiculously loud that I could actually hear the lyrics he was screeching through the booth wall, with no monitor speaker at all - and that was a recently rebuilt booth wall, to nitrate specifications!

First bold: Same here, when I worked at the Grande 4 in L.A., we had a few random celebs who had discovered our tiny and off the beaten path location as the perfect place to catch a film in public. I added center/surround to theatres 1 and 2 with Ultra*Stereo processors and the horrid Peavey CS400 amps. It sounded good enough for the small auditoria and the customers loved it. My most memorable meet up with a celeb was the late Dom DeLouise. His son was starring in an Academy short that he wanted to see. I had just started it when the manager called up asking me to stop and "rewind" it (that booth had Strong Platters and NO reel spindles, so it was plattered). I grumbled a bit as it had run five minutes already and would be a pain to reset. He told me that it was important. So I stopped and reset and rethreaded it, and waited. We were now going to be VERY late for the next show. The com buzzed again, asking me to come downstairs. I went down, and there was Dom, thanking me for accomodating him. I went up, started the short, and when it was over, as I was threading the feature I heard a call from the ladder well. I shouted just a minute please, got the feature running and went down the ladder. It was Dom, again thanking me for delaying the film, and he handed me $200. I tried to refuse, but he insisted. I ended up buying the staff dinner (pizzas, ect.) for the rest of the week.

I also got to meet George Takei and his partner Brad (not our grand poo-bah), both very nice and George gave the staff and me tips. "Oh, my" indeed.

Second Bold: That is the perfect example of a properly designed and tuned system. It should be able to take anything thrown at it without damage to anything (other than people's hearing.) My experiences in the industry proved that a properly designed and tuned system can and will play a film at "7" without being irritatingly loud to the extreme majority of the audience. Only the snowflakes will complain about it being too loud. I once ran "Top Gun" (the first one) at a certain theatre after a move over in 70mm. I decided to stay for part of the show to check it, and the projectionist graciously (or from being lazy) told me to thread up and start it. I left the fader at "7" on purpose, and started the show. Of course the trailers were annoyingly loud, but when the opening kick drum of the Top Gun Anthem started, it was very punchy and clear. When the jets afterburners and "Danger Zone" kicked in, I was rattling the whole auditorium. The two surfer/stoner dudes behind me went "Whoa dude, that's epic.." as I hurried to the booth to turn it down a bit. I was met by a very upset manager, as the rumble from the subs took down a few ceiling tiles in his office.

[Martin Brooks]

I went to a test screening of "Ali" years ago that the director Michael Mann attended. It wasn't a final print and they handed him a hardwired volume control that he could adjust from the audience. But luckily, he wasn't a director who thought that cranking up the volume to ear-piercing levels would create excitement of emotion. I think it was primarily just so if some of the dialog scenes were too low, he could increase the volume a bit.
I find it hard to believe that Gerwig found any theater in which the volume was too low. I'd say about 90% of the movies I've attended in the last five years have had excessive levels. Sometimes I actually bring an SPL meter with me just to see how high it gets and there have been films that have exceeded OSHA regulations for workplaces.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

I went to a test screening of "Ali" years ago that the director Michael Mann attended. It wasn't a final print and they handed him a hardwired volume control that he could adjust from the audience. But luckily, he wasn't a director who thought that cranking up the volume to ear-piercing levels would create excitement of emotion. I think it was primarily just so if some of the dialog scenes were too low, he could increase the volume a bit.
I find it hard to believe that Gerwig found any theater in which the volume was too low. I'd say about 90% of the movies I've attended in the last five years have had excessive levels. Sometimes I actually bring an SPL meter with me just to see how high it gets and there have been films that have exceeded OSHA regulations for workplaces.

The part I bold typed kinda (OK, REALLY) bugs me when people use it. That rule OSHA has is intended for exposure over the average work day, i.e. 8 hours. And they are talking sustained, "continuous" noise levels (say over 50-65% of total time duration.) I feel it is NOT a valid metric to apply to sound exposures to an audience at a cinema or other show. Edited to add: here's the table for permissible exposures, note that the LOUDEST SOUND is allowed for up to 15 MINUTES: (First column is HOURS, second is decibels)

8	90
6	92
4	95
3	97
2	100
1½	102
1	105
½	110
¼ or less	115

And:

The employer shall administer a continuing, effective hearing conservation program, as described in paragraphs (c) through (o) of this section, whenever employee noise exposures equal or exceed an 8-hour time-weighted average sound level (TWA) of 85 decibels measured on the A scale (slow response) or, equivalently, a dose of fifty percent. For purposes of the hearing conservation program, employee noise exposures shall be computed in accordance with appendix A and Table G-16a, and without regard to any attenuation provided by the use of personal protective equipment.

Now there have been some epic length films, but rarely over three and a half hours long. But NONE, to my knowledge, have ever had SPLs exceeding 85dbc in excess of that 50-65% time threshold. (Ok, maybe a Michael Bay film, but still...) And film sound is VERY dynamic, with peaks over 100dBc, but the vast majority of the time the levels are around 55-70dBc (average to loud conversation.) That is so far from a typical workplace type environment that the OSHA argument makes no sense.

As someone exposed to very loud noises in my career (I was in the Air Force, on the flightline with A-10 and F-4 fighter jets) I of course was provided with proper hearing protection. I can tell you that my well calibrated ears were STILL getting over 85dBc with that protection on, but again the time duration was only around 20-30%. I later worked in live sound, doing stage monitor mixing and exposed to peak levels of 120dBc during a three hour show, with NO hearing protection on (you couldn't use it when mixing sound.) Military was 13 years, live sound was about 2 years, and my hearing today is on par with the average 60 year old. (The OSHA rules most certainly would apply to both of those situations, and we all know what the military thinks about another gov't agency getting up in their business. As for the shows, I have, in the time I did live sound, NEVER heard (pun intended) of any OSHA filings in regards to mixing engineers,, stagehands, etc.)

tldr; OSHA rules do not apply to anything OTHER THAN the average 8 hour workplace.

[Frank Cox]

8 hours, 4 hours or ten seconds. If it's too loud it's too loud and there's no good reason for it.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

8 hours, 4 hours or ten seconds. If it's too loud it's too loud and there's no good reason for it.

Define "too loud." Give an exact decibel level that you would consider too loud. Also be sure to specify the exact time duration at said level which meets your criteria.

The point is, as many discussions about fader setting on here has shown, what "too loud" is, is NOT an easily quantifiable argument.

A good reason is this: I happen to prefer music, and films, to be presented at sound levels that I would expect to hear in the real-life scenarios presented. An explosion in a film SHOULD be extremely loud, as they are in real life. (As an electrician and my time in the military provided, I have first hand experience with real life explosions and they are painfully loud.) As a live sound engineer, i was right next to the stage and real instruments up close (even classical strings, etc.) are VERY loud when played.

I realize that I am in a 'minority" compared to the average moviegoer, in a way. Since most cases of complaints about a movie being "too loud" usually come from only a few patrons (and of certain demographics) it seems that maybe I am NOT in the minority. I do not ever recall more than a few people at ANY film I ran or attended running out to demand it be turned down.

In my "Top Gun" analogy above, after turning the fader back down (to 5.5 or 6 IIRC) I DID hear some ask why it was turned down, and got a few dirty looks from others as they realized that I was the one somehow responsible for the sudden drop in volume.

When I worked at the Grande in L.A. I too had to turn down some films on customer request, only to have to return to the "proper" fader setting (7) on subsequent shows. In the two mono houses I did use a pink noise loop to approximate, and mark, the 85dBc setting on those amps.

Everyone has their own idea of what "too loud" is, but it seems that, given a properly tuned and designed sound system (cinema or live sound) the vast majority of people do not consider it "too loud" when played at reference level.

My experience in both fields has proven to me that most systems that come off as "too loud" are either badly tuned or inadequately designed/underpowered, driving the amps into clipping. (Crown amp based systems are especially bad when pushed to near clipping, but then again, those amps sound like ass to me even when not driven hard.)

[Steve Guttag]

That's an absurd statement. Loud for 10-seconds is vastly different than loud for 4-hours or however long the movie is. Explosions should be loud or they aren't explosions. But when you can hear someone's eyelash blink...yeah, that is a bit loud. One doesn't fatigue from sound in 10-seconds unless it is louder than cinema systems are set up to play. If the entire movie is loud, it also kills dynamic range because there is no range...just loud. People shouldn't have the decibel level of shouting when they are just talking. Music shouldn't compete with dialog. But the occasional loud passage...yeah, that is fine or you might as well be listening to AM radio.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

^^^^^ What Steve said!

[Frank Cox]

No.

If I go to a movie or a concert and when I leave my ears are ringing and I can't hear anything else when I walk out onto the sidewalk, it was too loud.

Many people (surprisingly including some of you folks apparently) confuse loud with good. Good sound doesn't have to rip your face off all the time and it loses its effect when it's constant.

In my comments about the Haunting in Venice I wrote that I sure jumped when the chandelier fell down. Why? Everyone was standing around talking quietly and then SLAM CRASH! I jumped a foot and boy was that ever effective! I had a few of the people who came to see the movie tell me on the way out, "Gosh, that chandelier sure got me going."

Why?

If everyone had been standing around screaming at a rock concert and the chandelier fell down nobody would have noticed much and certainly wouldn't have been talking about it even after the show was over.

There's a difference between a character who's asking which way to the men's room and the building exploding.

The sound in my theatre can really bounce you sometimes but it's not constant and it shouldn't be.