Small Room Projector - Barco vs NEC

[Darin Steffl]

We're adding a second screening room with 9-12 seats and had ordered the Barco SP2K-7 but just had a call with our dealer that we have two options for lead time, according to Barco. Pay an 8% extortion fee ($2,300) which only includes a 1-year extended warranty and we'll be put in line for a June production run with delivery in July or August. OR keep our original price and we'll be put in a September run and not receive it until October or November. This is from Barco and our dealer said they have to make this tough call to all other customers with Barco projectors on order. I feel for them...

I can say I'm not happy with Barco at all and please be warned if you try to order from them that this might happen to you too.

I'm now looking at alternative options like the NEC NC1000C or the NC1202L. It's Xenon vs Laser. Price is probably an 8-10k difference but I'm waiting to hear more from our dealer. If lead times are sooner with NEC, I'm likely to go that route over waiting for the Barco. We will only run this room about 20,000 hours over 10 years so paying for lamps will be cheaper than paying $10k more for laser and not having to buy lamps. If I have to pay $800 for lamps every 3000 hours, it'd be about $5,400 in lamp costs which is still cheaper than paying more for laser upfront.

The NC1000C is dual lamp it appears and new lamps are $399 each. Do both lamps always run at the same time so I can expect to pay $800 every 3000 hours to replace them? Or does only one lamp run at a time so I'm at $399 per 3000 hours?

Any experience with these two projectors good/bad that would sway me away or towards them for our project? The screen will only be about 9 feet wide.

Thank you!

[Steve Guttag]

The NC1000 can be configured to run with one or both lamps (depends on what your lighting needs are). Just note, with only one lamp, the light is a little less uniform. The NC1000 uses the same disposable filters as the NC900 (its direct predecessor).

The NC-1202L is the slightly newer version of the NC-1201L. NEC's form of laser safety is to have a dongle in a USB port to allow one to prevent the lasers from turning on. It is quite dumb (they are the only ones that do it this way) but otherwise harmless. Were I've put them in, I've used stubby USB drives (don't stick out at all) to avoid anyone snapping them off. I also make two per machine so if one gets removed, lost/failed, the spare is right there. The NC1202L has annoying filters. They are like Barco S2 filters in that they are metal mesh but VERY course and they put two filters together using sheet metal. You can cut yourself fooling with them and getting them to mesh together can be frustrating. I wish they kept with the disposables.

NEC makes a reliable projector. One has to be very careful on the boundry areas around those projectors to prevent them from circulating their own hot air and cooking (the NC1000, for instance, blows hot air out the back AND draws in the back so if there is a close barrier, it will circulate the hot air). NEC's S2K projectors (.69" chips) have VERY POOR lens registration. If your set up will require having the lens zoom/shift between formats, forget it. There isn't enough resolution in the gearing for it to hit its mark twice in a row. All projectors drift over time but NEC's S2K projectors can't even hit the same place twice, ever. If you are going to just lock the lens in place (1.85 screen) then that isn't an issue.

Performance wise, a BIG difference between the Barco S4 projectors and the NEC will be contrast. The NEC S2K projectors have horrible contrast ratios (knocking around 1650) while the SP2K from Barco will be closer to 2000:1. This is something that is readily apparent. One needs to use, at least a 1.4 gain screen with an NEC S2K if the lack of contrast is to be rendered acceptable (but now with a hot spot).

Another thing to factor into your real cost of ownership is the electricity of a lamp based projector versus laser. Depending on the projectors, the savings can be significant though I'd think the difference would be much greater on the bigger/brighter projectors.

As a Barco dealer, as well, I can tell you that I've never been offered the pay-for-faster but nothing would surprise me, these days. I've had SP4K projectors on order since December. Then again, I'm waiting on some xenon lamps for months, and most anything with a microchip has sketchy shipping times (and not just for Cinema...it is everywhere).

[Leo Enticknap]

The NC1000's lamps are not xenon - they are UHP mercury arc lamps (aka classroom projector bulbs). The advantages are that no safety precautions (beyond common sense) are required when handling them, and that the cost per hour is significantly lower than xenon arc. The main disadvantage is that the color temperature of their output changes a lot over time. If maintaining the color calibration within DCI spec is important to you, that is a counterindication for this technology.

With the NC1000, you can choose to run both lamps simultaneously, or just one. For a screen that is only nine feet wide, one should be just fine, unless you're planning to watch movies with daylight streaming in through the window. In fact, I suspect that both the laser projectors you are contemplating (the SP2K-7 and NC1201L) will be too bright for that screen size in a properly darkened room, and that you'd need a ND filter to bring the light level down to 14.

The only other possible risk is of environmental legislation banning the sale of UHP lamps at some point in the future (mercury pollution if they end up in landfill). I understand that the EU is already introducing it.

Agreed with Steve on the NEC lens position bug. If you wish to touch up a lens position file, it is necessary to move the zoom, focus, or shift to a wildly different position, save that, then move back to where you want it to be. If you just move it a hair and then save, it won't take. The newly saved position may even be further off.

Barco has definitely been the victim of its own success with the SP2K/4K line. In addition to Steve's note about contrast, the Barco's HDMI handling (either with the ICMP-X or ICP-D) is vastly superior to anything that an NEC could offer using a Dolby or GDC IMB. The other big advantage of Barcos is that they are a lot easier to maintain and replace parts in than their NEC equivalents. I haven't encountered fast track delivery for an extra fee, either.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

I have had the least trouble with NEC gear overall. The most problems with Christie. I put in very few Barco, but I didn't really have issues with them either. I guess the new Barco has edge connector problems, so it might be wise to take that into account. I also would nut buy anything from any company that makes you buy an extended warranty just to get their projector, indeed... that IS extortion. I am also not sold on Laser yet. I'd only use it right now in very inaccessible installations.. Laser colorimetry some times looks strange to me. All the Regals here in Nashville were converted to Barco Laser just before the pandemic hit. Light distribution is great, but color just did not seem as nice as it is with xenon. I put in a bunch of NC-900's and everyone that bought them had exploding lamp issues. But Ushio fixed the lamp problem and they are fine now. Instead of the NC-1201, perhaps price the NC-1200 that takes standard xenon lamps, but it's only series 2, and who knows how long they will supply parts. And lastly, unless your dealer is god to you, then get more quotes!!!.. He probably knows he has a captive customer.
Nine to twelve seats may not even pay for itself. Have you run the numbers on the payback time for that few seats. The smallest I have ever done over 40+ years is 28 seats.

[Darin Steffl]

Our dealer said he just got off a conference call this morning with Barco discussing the "pay for faster delivery" offer. I expect other dealers will have this call soon too.

I really like the contrast ratio and other specs of the SP2K we ordered but I can't wait any longer to go live on this screen and I'm not willing to pay extra just on principle.

I suppose if the lead time for NEC is just as long as Barco, I'll stick with Barco but if NEC can get us a projector in 4-6 weeks, we'll go that route.

Otherwise, does anyone have a used, working small projector we can rent for 6 months?! ?

[Leo Enticknap]

Otherwise, does anyone have a used, working small projector we can rent for 6 months?! ?

See PM I'm about to send you.

[Darin Steffl]

Our dealer has been providing great pricing to us so far when I've shopped around. The 8% fee is direct from Barco.

The goal of this second screen isn't for additional seats but to move shows here on week 2 or 3 so we can show more new release movies in our main auditorium. We can also alternate shows between our 200 seat screen and this one on weekends, depending on contractual obligations.

This is a tough choice as it feels like putting in a new lamp projector in 2022 is wrong when the industry is going all laser.

[Leo Enticknap]

Maybe Barco is anticipating input costs (e.g. parts) going down by the time of their September production run, and the extra fee for the June run is to cover short-term overheads?

[Darin Steffl]

Maybe Barco is anticipating input costs (e.g. parts) going down by the time of their September production run, and the extra fee for the June run is to cover short-term overheads?

They said they're only breaking even at the price we ordered so the fee is to cover the costs of this earlier production run. So your thoughts that input costs might go down by September could be true. I assume the price we agreed on for the Barco is supposed to have profit built-in already for them and dealers.

[Mike Blakesley]

They said they're only breaking even at the price we ordered

That seems like a bit of of a red flag to me. Why would they sell at a break even price? You don't stay in business very long doing that. If they're not honest with you about that, what else are they bending the truth about?

[Sam Chavez]

This the work of Cinionic (sp). They are essentially the master USA dealer for Barco and then sell on to the cinema dealer network. Barco has excellent engineering but seemingly sketchy business practices.

Bet I won't be invited to the Barco party in Vegas!

[Steve Guttag]

That seems like a bit of of a red flag to me. Why would they sell at a break even price? You don't stay in business very long doing that. If they're not honest with you about that, what else are they bending the truth about?

Mike, I've heard and actually SEEN really crazy price changes on raw parts (like parts going from $1 to $120). It doesn't take too many of those to drive something non-profitable. There is a belief that the price hikes are in many cases temporary so what some companies have done is to keep a popular product at a reasonable price by raising prices across the board to use the entire product line as a buffer. One can research things like shipping costs where a container that normally costs $2000 to bring in is now averaging between $20,000 and $25,000. That will affect larger things more so than smaller things but 10x plus on inbound freight has to fit in there somewhere.

If a manufacturer really went to jack up a price like that (presuming that they think the problem is temporary), they'd forever be labeled as price gouging. That is something that they wouldn't shake very well. Not all companies are affected equally either and they all need to stay competitive, to a degree.

[Sam Chavez]

First rate, well run companies don't go around whining in public about how they are not making a profit. They suck it up and think long term.

[Jason Sharp]

For a screen that small, maybe look into the Espedo Supra 5000.
https://www.espedeo.com/products/espedeo-supra-5000

[Darin Steffl]

Ballpark price on the Espedo with GDC built-in?