ICMP-x battery issue on a Barco DP2k-8s

[Carsten Kurz]

I think there still is a maximum of three cinema DLP OEMs allowed by TI. I don't know if anyone asked recently, but I think that limit still holds true.
Now, without Sony, one could ask wether that limit could be illegal practice. Admittedly, no one is forced to use DLP for DCI projectors.


Whatever - that cert expiration thing (not all caused by drained batteries) is a growing pain. While in general, the DCI transition went ok, and except for some very few outliers, equipment stability and picture quality has proven to be above initial apprehension - exhibitors are not willing to accept artificial lifetime limitations of otherwise perfectly working gear - if they become aware of it. And there needs to be a chain of responsibility between OEMs, projector/server manufactureres, integrators, and exhibitors
I recently started some behind the scenes discussions with ISDCF members about the upcoming ICP carnage and created some attention.
The majority of series 2 systems world wide have been installed between 2010 and 2013 during the main phase of the digital rollout, and all of these systems use an ICP. Even with some spread in actual battery life of their cert batteries, figure...

- Carsten

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Carsten, Did Sony ever really matter once their initial installations of projectors were over, and that was back during VPF's. It seems to me that by pulling the plug on it that even Sony thought that they no longer mattered. Plus they never even announced any laser versions of their projectors.

[Marcel Birgelen]

I'm not Carsten, but I do know quite a few locations that are still running Sony projectors, not all of them joined during the VPF phase. Sony had a sweet-spot for certain screen sizes compared with the then rather unique capability of playing 4K content at full resolution.

Sony has become a "victim" of the DCI niche. They never introduced any other professional big-venue SRDX projectors and as such, they didn't have any platform they could share the costs with. All new innovations in this sector had to be carried by the rather small DCI replacement market. That's also why we never saw any production-ready laser projectors.

[Carsten Kurz]

Sony sold the DCI SRX-R815P/810P/DS laser projector series since 2017. Alamo Drafthouse was among the first prominent buyers in the US.
That is a phosphor laser, admittedly, not a 3P/6P system. Sony only ever showed a prototype of a 6P system.


If I remember right, Sony has about 25.000 DCI systems sold altogether. All 4k. They released 4 generations of DCI projectors between 2007 and 2017. Two of them being xenon based, one UHP based, one phosphor laser. A fifth generation/type, again a phosphor laser, was announced late 2018, but to my knowledge was only sold in Japan. They did market some non-DCI versions of these projectors for the AV/simulation/rental market (the SRX-T420 and SRX-T615), but they did not sell well - too large/heavy, and too expensive, even for that market. It wasn't a platform strategy as Barco and Christie utilize it. Sony sells loads of home cinema, presentation and rental projectors, but techwise, these were completely separate from their DCI systems.

Back to batteries - two weeks ago I was called out to check a Sony 510 that had been kept in storage unpowered since late 2016 (originally installed early 2015). I connected it temporarily to a wall socket, and it booted up and started with no issues - incl. Tripp Lite UPS. These Sony systems contain six coin cells altogether. Our system was installed early 2013, and is still using the first set of cells. Sony has a status display for all cells in the server GUI.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

A number of problems with Sony projectors that I noted over the years.

They all seem have really bad lamp life. and most use multiple lamps... rediculous!

While they can do a pretty perfect black, no theater in this country that has proper safety egress lighting is going to let you enjoy that feature.

Everything about them is non standard.

Probably the worlds worst 3-D lensing ever conceived that is more or less stuck in place once installed.

According to Carsten, they have only ever dabbled in Laser projectors. Laser is obviously the future for cinema projection for the foreseeable future with big direct view screens probably coming in after laser.

They require way more frequent adjustment to maintain proper color space.

The Green imager eventually turns brown from the heat in the light path necessitating it's replacement.

You have to deal with Sony for spares... How long before the capacitors will begin to fail? Sony is very famous for them going bad. Sony Broadcast sells LOTS of capacitor kits for it's different, but not all of it's, products. I have rebuilt hundreds of TV camera boards over the years with those capacitor kits. But they will fail again eventually!

As if dealing with them to get a projector in the first place was not bad enough. Yes, I know... Strong distributes them too, or did for a few years. Who still buys from them?
And if all the above was not bad enough Sony will drop support for them faster than you can spell Mississippi! Just as they have done for just about every past cinema and Pro product. A few Pro Broadcast products (TV Cameras) excepted...

This is why some one coined the phrase.... "Run... It's a Sony"

There is no Sony anything in my house unless it's a part inside some other piece of gear..

Anyone that wants to add to this list, please go right ahead.....

[Marcel Birgelen]

A number of problems with Sony projectors that I noted over the years.

They all seem have really bad lamp life. and most use multiple lamps... rediculous!

NEC also sells projectors with multiple lamps, so that's not really unique. Sony lamps also used to be quite affordable, compared to their xenon counterparts. The lamp-life issue is new to me, you're referring to a particular model?

While they can do a pretty perfect black, no theater in this country that has proper safety egress lighting is going to let you enjoy that feature.

So, I guess you cant really blame Sony for this?

Everything about them is non standard.

They do conform to DCI specs, so what exactly is non-standard about them, other than that they weren't DLP machines built around the same DCI TI platform?

Probably the worlds worst 3-D lensing ever conceived that is more or less stuck in place once installed.

I do agree on that one. I think the best way to do 3D with a Sony projector is a dual projector setup with moveable polarizers. Fortunately, 3D seems to have mostly gone the way of the dodo.

According to Carsten, they have only ever dabbled in Laser projectors. Laser is obviously the future for cinema projection for the foreseeable future with big direct view screens probably coming in after laser.

Yes, their SXRD technology simply isn't capable of modulating the amount of light of a 3P or 6P setup. You see other companies using LCD technology, like Epson, also struggling in modulating pure laser light at those intensities.

They require way more frequent adjustment to maintain proper color space.

The only reason I consider this a problem, is because Sony never really designed auto-calibration as an integral part of their system, right from the get-go.

The Green imager eventually turns brown from the heat in the light path necessitating it's replacement.

I agree that earlier models had lots of issues with burned T-cores. It wasn't just green though, it was just more noticeable on the green. Sony fixed most of this in later models, but let a lot of early customers bite the dust and spend tons of money on new t-cores, only to have their image turn to unicorn-farts again in a few months, before they came with mitigation strategies. I still blame Sony for mishandling this situation and getting a few smaller exhibitors into some major trouble.

You have to deal with Sony for spares... How long before the capacitors will begin to fail? Sony is very famous for them going bad. Sony Broadcast sells LOTS of capacitor kits for it's different, but not all of it's, products. I have rebuilt hundreds of TV camera boards over the years with those capacitor kits. But they will fail again eventually!

Sony, like many other brands used a lot of those bad Taiwanese caps back in the day, but I've not really seen any major capacitor failure in any Sony projector gear. Most boards will be equipped with capacitors from the post-capacitor-plague period.

As if dealing with them to get a projector in the first place was not bad enough. Yes, I know... Strong distributes them too, or did for a few years. Who still buys from them?
And if all the above was not bad enough Sony will drop support for them faster than you can spell Mississippi! Just as they have done for just about every past cinema and Pro product. A few Pro Broadcast products (TV Cameras) excepted...

Most people I know, running Sony projectors, never really had any trouble getting spare parts, until now at least. Maybe their European operations are better stocked?

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

NEC also sells projectors with multiple lamps, so that's not really unique. Sony lamps also used to be quite affordable, compared to their xenon counterparts. The lamp-life issue is new to me, you're referring to a particular model?

NEC in fact uses the same Ushio Mercury lamps that Sony uses, but they only use two, not four. Replacing a pair is about the same cost as a 2kw film projector lamp.And they actually do last for 3000 hours in the NEC now that the lamp was redesigned.

So, I guess you cant really blame Sony for this?

I wasn't. But why bother with true black then? Some people think it makes a difference... but stray light on the screen is still stray light on the screen no matter who you look at it. If I was setting up a system in a home screening room then I'd actually consider a JVC projector.

They do conform to DCI specs, so what exactly is non-standard about them, other than that they weren't DLP machines built around the same DCI TI platform?

I know that... you have to put in a KDM and there are switches to detect tamper. But they rest of it is rather odd in it's execution...

Yes, their SXRD technology simply isn't capable of modulating the amount of light of a 3P or 6P setup. You see other companies using LCD technology, like Epson, also struggling in modulating pure laser light at those intensities.

Of course, that takes work and money to improve the imaging chips. And Sony was making no $$$ on this whole thing anyway.

The only reason I consider this a problem, is because Sony never really designed auto-calibration as an integral part of their system, right from the get-go.

Neither did T.I.... But Sony's, especially on larger screens, tend to drift much faster. The only real reason to re-calibrate a DLP is because you changed a major part in the optical system.

Sony, like many other brands used a lot of those bad Taiwanese caps back in the day, but I've not really seen any major capacitor failure in any Sony projector gear. Most boards will be equipped with capacitors from the post-capacitor-plague period.

Actually, Sony manufactured their own caps, just as they manufactured a lot of their own semiconductors. I have had some newish caps fail just a few years after switching them out. If they used 105 degree C caps instead of el-cheapo 85 degree then they would probably last.

Most people I know, running Sony projectors, never really had any trouble getting spare parts, until now at least. Maybe their European operations are better stocked?

It sure was not that way with the last Cinema products and many Broadcast products.

You may be able to get them during the next year or two, but Sony has been famous for outright discontinuing parts for major items. SDDS is a great example of that where they ran out of sprockets and lateral guides for the 3000 reader and they kept saying two years before they would have them. Even tried getting them from through a couple of European friends. No avail there either. We finally had LaVezzi and Wolk manufacture spares for us. We retired all the 2000's and replaced them with CP-650's.

[Gordon McLeod]

Mark said "NEC in fact uses the same Ushio Mercury lamps that Sony uses, but they only use two, not four. Replacing a pair is about the same cost as a 2kw film projector lamp.And they actually do last for 3000 hours in the NEC now that the lamp was redesigned."
The NEC 1000c cost more to operate per hour that a 1200c xenon

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

The Sony can take four 350 watt or four 450 watt. But you are right on the cost of the 450's. Thats why I never put in any NC-1000's. At that point the NC-1200 makes more sense.

[Carsten Kurz]

The Sony 510 uses 4 lamps, 330W or 450W, the Sony 515 uses 6 lamps, 330W or 450W. If you buy batches of 6 (that is a prepackaged 6pcs box from Sony, not just 6 single lamps) - which you should, even if you only have a 4 lamp system - the price is on par with xenon systems (Sony simply put the price there to stay competitive in marketing).
If you buy single lamps from Sony, they cost nearly three times of what they cost in a batch. We buy from our cinema integrator.

Our Barco DP2K-6E uses twin 450W UHPs of the same bulb type, Barco only offers single lamps for purchase, and for what one lamp costs, we get three from Sony (again, in a batch). We only use our Barco for a few mobile cinema showings each year, so we don't care much about the operating cost.
Since Ushio reworked the lamps and Sony adjusted the software (and we put in our own saver macros), even the 450W lamps last more than 4000hrs regulary, but of cause still drop in brightness and color towards the end. For your 30ft screen, after more than 7 years we are now halfway through our second batch of lamps, the first batch came with the system when it was installed in 2013. That means, in 7 years, we had about 600US$ lamp cost with it. No 3D, and only a single show per day, of course. Still, if you buy the 6packs, they are very economic (on top of the Sony's very low overall power consumption).
Add failure redundancy and ease of lamp change - no protective wear, no cleaning, no bulb alignment, no bulb registration, no special trained staff needed.

A colleague uses an NC900 under similar conditions on a much smaller screen since 2014, and is still on his first set of 350W lamps. When he started, NEC had already solved the initial issues with these lamps/power supplies (as Sony did).


- Carsten

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

"the price is on par with xenon systems"

So are the pair of 330 watt NEC lamps. The pair are actually less than a 2kw film projector lamp....but since there are only two I will assume about 1/3 the price of the same
Ushio lamps from Sony.... In fact the NP-9LP06 NC-900 lamp is even sold on Amazon...

[Leo Enticknap]

The NEC 1000c cost more to operate per hour that a 1200c xenon...

If all you're looking at is the cost per hour of running the actual bulbs, yes. However, I can train the technologically illiterate, pot-puffing assistant manager of some hippie arthouse to swap out the bulbs in an NEC 900 or 1000 in fifteen minutes, thereby saving the cost of a service tech callout. Trying to do likewise with a xenon arc bulb would likely incur funeral costs.

That's my catty remark for the day all used up. Seriously, though, the fact that these mercury halide lamps can be replaced by someone with almost no technical training, and in complete safety, is a major selling point for some venues.

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

However, I can train the technologically illiterate, pot-puffing assistant manager of some hippie arthouse to swap out the bulbs in an NEC 900 or 1000 in fifteen minutes, thereby saving the cost of a service tech callout. Trying to do likewise with a xenon arc bulb would likely incur funeral costs.

All of my customers could change either type of lamps. I am not going to drive as far as 900 miles just to change a light bulb... Occasionally they would forget how to reset the hours or get into the lamp align on the front panel to do that. So some times I would remote in and guide them to do it...

[Marcel Birgelen]

If it came down to a trained projectionist, I'd expect him/her to be able to change a xenon lamp, simply because it's part of his/her job. But you can't expect the popcorn artist* who otherwise wiggles a power button or two to be able to actually change a xenon bulb. Not because it's rocket science, but primarily due to the risks and liabilities involved when stuff goes wrong, both in potential personal and property damage.

* I recently visited a Subway, a mostly regrettable experience, where the guy or girl throwing the stuff on the sandwich is called a sandwich artist. I guess, that's because of the creative way it's getting thrown in there, with little regards to consistent distribution of ingredients.

[Dave Macaulay]

All chain sites we service have staff that change the xenon lamps and have the safety equipment. Independent singles, some will and some won't. Usually if one wants a tech to do it I change the lamp on a 6 month pm service call, it is rarely a special trip. Some smaller town cinemas run weekends only so a lamp lasts a year or more.