Amazon Fire Stick playback on GDC server/Barco projector

[Mike Blakesley]

I'm working on setting up an Amazon Fire Stick to play through our system. This isn't for public screenings, it's just so my wife and I can watch something cool on a Saturday afternoon.

It plays fine, except the contrast is bad. The blacks look gray. It's a brand new 4K FireStick, and so far I haven't found any settings that would help with this issue.

Even a settings menu screen has a grayish screen that I'm sure is really supposed to look black.

As for the projector -- I'm running it through an HDMI port on our GDC server. If I play a blu-ray player through the same port it looks fine.

What am I missing? Any ideas?

We have a GDC SR1000 server and a Barco SP15-4K projector.

[James Gardiner]

This sounds like an issue with the fire stick. Or potentially with the GDC.
The data levels appear to be incorrect between the units. The screen should detect metadata in the signal to know how to set the "Data Levels"

quote "Full level files encode their image data within a full range container. For full range 8-bit files, this means values from 0 to 255, 0 being pure black and 255 being pure white. For 8-bit video range files, this means values from 16-235, 16 being pure black and 235 being pure white."

Its common to see this when the sender device sends Video levels and the display things its full levels. Meaning, the black levels get lifted and are not BLACK in appearance.
I would play with the FireStick video output config and see if you can trick it to work.

[Marco Giustini]

It's called "HDMI level" or "RGB level". I cannot remember how it's called in the Fire but play with the video output. If it's set to RGB, you should have a "limited" or "extended" (or "FULL", "FULL RANGE") setting. Try changing that.

Actually from the pic below found online it might not have that option (so it's fixed to "limited") so try YCbCr instead?

Projectors don't usually allow changing that - Christie do I think and Post Production Barco. And Sony. So you have to adjust that in the stick. It's a common issue, commercial TVs work on "limited" levels, from 16 to 235 grey levels. The projector is by default expecting a full range 0 to 255 so when the stick sends BLACK (16) the projector shows grey because it's expecting 0 as full black.

[Ryan Gallagher]

It's called "HDMI level" or "RGB level". I cannot remember how it's called in the Fire but play with the video output. If it's set to RGB, you should have a "limited" or "extended" (or "FULL", "FULL RANGE") setting. Try changing that.

Actually from the pic below found online it might not have that option (so it's fixed to "limited") so try YCbCr instead?

Projectors don't usually allow changing that - Christie do I think and Post Production Barco. And Sony. So you have to adjust that in the stick. It's a common issue, commercial TVs work on "limited" levels, from 16 to 235 grey levels. The projector is by default expecting a full range 0 to 255 so when the stick sends BLACK (16) the projector shows grey because it's expecting 0 as full black.

Whether it's via the settings Marco shared, or elsewhere... there should be a way to adjust whether it is trying to send HDR data or not. It might be sending HDR wrongly to the GDC. I know at least with AppleTV4K you can select between those modes in the resolution settings.

[Steve Guttag]

The server is always going to have limited ability to handle such things. They treat HDMI as a courtesy input. I'm noting that on late-model SR-1000s (there is a bit of a variety of SR-1000s out there...running on different firmware too), that they have the ability to set the OUTPUT color space on the Alternative Content inputs (HDMI/SDI). But that is between XYZ and RGB...the problem here is before we get to converting to output. The EDID of the server should be telling the source what it is capable of handling (what it wants).

While it is possible to change the color space on a Barco S4, they don't make it easy for non-post production. However, since Barco works with the TI ICP/Enigma control program on the ICP-D, it is possible to load in other CSC files and create your own PCFs that way. This can be done for alternative Gammas too.

I'm curious though. If you plug the Fire Stick into one of the HDMI ports on the ICP-D, does the ICP-D get the color space right (with the right range)?

[Leo Enticknap]

The HDMI input on the CCB has the gamma set to 2.6 by default. This is correct for DCI, but not for Rec. 709 (the most commonly used image encoding standard passed through HDMI), which should be 2.2. You could try changing it (configuration > inputs > edit HDMI 1 or 2 input, as desired), as so:

image.png

[Steve Guttag]

Note, that file that Leo is showing is for the ICMP-X or ICP-D and would have zero effect on the server's input color space handling. If the GDC server is set to XYZ output, then the Gamma of 2.6 is correct and it is up to the server to make the conversion of both Gamma as well as color space. However, if the range is wrong on the input, that will remain wrong through the mapping. The place to make that change is on the PCF in the CSC file. I wonder if the Firestick can be forced into an YCrCb output instead of RGB.

[Tony Bandiera Jr]

Projectors don't usually allow changing that - Christie do I think and Post Production Barco. And Sony. So you have to adjust that in the stick. It's a common issue, commercial TVs work on "limited" levels, from 16 to 235 grey levels. The projector is by default expecting a full range 0 to 255 so when the stick sends BLACK (16) the projector shows grey because it's expecting 0 as full black.

Christies do allow it, I had a client who wanted to be able to adjust brightness and contrast on their CP2210. A few emeails and some AMX coding and I got them what they wanted. I also provided a "Normal" button to reset the B&C to their usual level in case they got too far out of range. :


Note: Forum software? is altering some of the characters like "&" and the "<" and ">" signs.

(**********************VPROJ LEVELS ADJUST ROUTINES***************)

IF ((PUSH_DEVICE = TP)&amp;&amp;((PUSH_CHANNEL &gt;= TP_BRIGHTUP_B)&amp;&amp;(PUSH_CHANNEL
&lt;=TP_CONTRDN_B)))
{
ON[TP,PUSH_CHANNEL]

CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SELECT
{
ACTIVE (PUSH_CHANNEL = TP_BRIGHTUP_B): ON[ADJUSTBRIGHTUP]
ACTIVE (PUSH_CHANNEL = TP_BRIGHTDN_B): ON[ADJUSTBRIGHTDN]
ACTIVE (PUSH_CHANNEL = TP_CONTRUP_B): ON[ADJUSTCONTRUP]
ACTIVE (PUSH_CHANNEL = TP_CONTRDN_B): ON[ADJUSTCONTRDN]

}
}
ELSE IF ((RELEASE_DEVICE = TP) &amp;&amp;((RELEASE_CHANNEL &gt;= TP_BRIGHTUP_B) &amp;&amp;
(RELEASE_CHANNEL &lt;= TP_CONTRDN_B)))
{
OFF [TP,RELEASE_CHANNEL]
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF

SELECT
{

ACTIVE (RELEASE_CHANNEL = TP_BRIGHTUP_B): OFF[ADJUSTBRIGHTUP]
ACTIVE (RELEASE_CHANNEL = TP_BRIGHTDN_B): OFF[ADJUSTBRIGHTDN]
ACTIVE (RELEASE_CHANNEL = TP_CONTRUP_B): OFF[ADJUSTCONTRUP]
ACTIVE (RELEASE_CHANNEL = TP_CONTRDN_B): OFF[ADJUSTCONTRDN]

}
}
SELECT
{
ACTIVE (ADJUSTBRIGHTUP):
IF (BRIGHTLEVEL &lt; 995)
WAIT 1
{
BRIGHTLEVEL = BRIGHTLEVEL + 5
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(BRT',ITOA(BRIGHTLEVEL),')'"
}

ACTIVE (ADJUSTBRIGHTDN):
IF (BRIGHTLEVEL &gt; 5)
WAIT 1
{
BRIGHTLEVEL = BRIGHTLEVEL - 5
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(BRT',ITOA(BRIGHTLEVEL),')'"
}

ACTIVE (ADJUSTCONTRUP):
IF (CONTRLEVEL &lt; 995)
WAIT 1
{
CONTRLEVEL = CONTRLEVEL + 5
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(CON',ITOA(CONTRLEVEL),')'"
}

ACTIVE (ADJUSTCONTRDN):
IF (CONTRLEVEL &gt; 5)
WAIT 1
{
CONTRLEVEL = CONTRLEVEL - 5
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(CON',ITOA(CONTRLEVEL),')'"
}

}
IF ((PUSH_DEVICE = TP) &amp;&amp; (PUSH_CHANNEL = TP_DEFAULT_B))
{

WAIT 10
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(CON450)'"
CONTRLEVEL = 450
WAIT 15
CLEAR_BUFFER VPROJBUFF
SEND_STRING VPROJ,"'(BRT315)'"
BRIGHTLEVEL = 315

}
(*CLIENT PREFERRED DEFAULT SETTINGS ARE 45.0 CONTRAST, 31.5 BRIGHTNESS, GAMMA 2.02
AND COLOR TEMPERATURE OF 5460*)


The values the projector wanted were between 5 and 995 and could be specified as whole numbers or at half point values (ex. 31.5)

I did not give them gamma or color temperature options, but I had the ability to do so.

[Leo Enticknap]

Note, that file that Leo is showing is for the ICMP-X or ICP-D and would have zero effect on the server's input color space handling. If the GDC server is set to XYZ output, then the Gamma of 2.6 is correct and it is up to the server to make the conversion of both Gamma as well as color space.

Good point: we need to know if Mike is using the HDMI input on the GDC, or one of the HDMI inputs on the projector's CCB. The GDC converts whatever it sees on the HDMI input to DCI (and, AFAIK, there is no way to override its auto-detection: there are limited options on the IMS3000). The Barco does not.

As a first step, I would suggest to Mike that whichever HDMI input route he's using, try the other and see if it looks any better, unless he's having to use the GDC input in order to get audio passthrough.

[Dennis Benjamin]

I used several Amazon firesticks on GDC servers (both SX-2000s and SR-1000s) with zero issues. I put one of these at all of my theatres originally (the 2K version). This one is the 4K version. It splits off the video and audio signal. Maybe it will solve your problem?

J-Tech Digital 4K 60Hz HDMI Audio Extractor Converter SPDIF + 3.5MM Output Supports HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2, 1080P@120Hz, 1080P@144Hz, Dolby Digital/DTS Passthrough CEC, HDR10 [JTD18G-H5CH]


https://shorturl.at/EvowC

[Marco Giustini]

The HDMI input on the CCB has the gamma set to 2.6 by default. This is correct for DCI, but not for Rec. 709 (the most commonly used image encoding standard passed through HDMI), which should be 2.2. You could try changing it (configuration > inputs > edit HDMI 1 or 2 input, as desired), as so:

You are correct but gamma does not affect the black level. Nevertheless, it should be set to 2.2 (it can go up to 2.4 in a dark room -- higher gamma = darker low levels but black is unaffected) indeed.

[Shibu Paul]

"Try alternative inputs for 'Output colourspace' with the new version."

[Steve Guttag]

This changes the GDC's OUTPUT color space and not the level range. Furthermore, if you change the GDC's output from XYZ to RGB, you then have to have suitable Macro/Channels with the RGB color space on the projector side.

[Mike Blakesley]

Well on a whim I called our technician about this and he created a new preset on the projector that makes it look great. I'm not sure how he pulled that off, but next time I talk to him I'll ask about it and update.

[James Gardiner]

Well on a whim I called our technician about this and he created a new preset on the projector that makes it look great. I'm not sure how he pulled that off, but next time I talk to him I'll ask about it and update.

Yes well, typically these types of issues, in the projectors are dealt with by 3D LUT lookup tables you load into the projector. You know, for a XYZ (DCI image) RGB or YUV image. They are called different TLAs by different vendors. I would expect you were using a suitable colour file, But it can depend on the DCI-Player as they can also process the signal. For example on a IMS2000, you can set it to auto or specify RGB/YUV from memory. But yes, the color file the Projector engine loads is also key. I would have expected some defaults you could have tried that would have landed you where you are now.