Refurbished PCs

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

However, they already mentioned they would be charging for the service. So paying those folks wages isn't an issue.

[Marco Giustini]

they won't announce extra support before the deadline - keeping a dedicated team to develop patches is expensive so they hope that people get scared and update
I speculate that W10 is going to be around - supported - for quite a few years to come!

[Mark Gulbrandsen]

Remember that Windows 11 is installed on 36% of PCs and Windows 10 on 60%, mine included (Nov 2024). Microsoft is not going to stop offering security protection to 60% of Windows PCs worldwide or it's going to be a cyber-disaster!

Very true, and MS has publicly talked about offering beyond end of support updates, patches, etc, for W10 for a yearly fee. Even they aren't so stupid to know the majority of the public hates W-11 and that's why they haven't already upgraded, and that there are big Corps that might buy new PC's in order to upgrade, or even drop Microsoft all together for another type of OS is all going to take a while.

[Marco Giustini]

Video editing is a niche use case: relatively few personal computer owners will ever want to do it, but those who do will need processing power, RAM, and storage way above the specs found in most PCs.

Understood - but it was the OP who mentioned some video editing as part of their tasks. But your point is valid of course.

Yet, thanks to the impending end of support for W10, tens of millions of tons of computer hardware will soon be going to landfill.

Well, I suspect Windows 10 will take much longer to disappear than MS would like. I think Windows 7 remained alive for much longer than MS initially planned but I cannot remember the numbers.

After all, Windows 11 does work with intel gen 8 CPUs which are 8 years old. (AMD is a bit less extended I think but on an AM4 system you can just change the CPU to a newer one). By the time Windows 10 becomes REALLY unsupported, we will be talking about 10+ years old systems

Remember that Windows 11 is installed on 36% of PCs and Windows 10 on 60%, mine included (Nov 2024). Microsoft is not going to stop offering security protection to 60% of Windows PCs worldwide or it's going to be a cyber-disaster!

[Leo Enticknap]

...but despite being a pretty powerful machine it just cannot run video editing decently.

Video editing is a niche use case: relatively few personal computer owners will ever want to do it, but those who do will need processing power, RAM, and storage way above the specs found in most PCs. The point I was trying to make in respect of refurbished PCs in general isn't really relevant to that, but rather to the billions of computer users who only ever want do do office functions and web use. For this purpose, a 10-year old PC is still perfectly good: blow out the fan(s), reseat the RAM boards, and replace the thermal paste on the CPU and the BIOS battery, and it'll likely be good for another 10. Yet, thanks to the impending end of support for W10, tens of millions of tons of computer hardware will soon be going to landfill.

The basic problem is that the industry is trying to move from software as a one-time purchase to software as a service model, and the traditional Windows licensing model - an OEM Windows license lasts through several generations of the software, and the life of the hardware - is putting Microsoft at a competitive disadvantage. So they are artificially shortening the lifecycle of a license, using security as the excuse (i.e. the requirement for a TPM). Apple have always done this, but the effect on the environment and the economy hasn't been as great, because Macs have always sold in tiny numbers compared to Windows PCs.

But I suspect that a combination of the environmentalist movement and the economic impact on less wealthy consumers and smaller businesses with 10-20 PCs suddenly faced with having to replace them (or pay the $30 per computer a year to extend W10 support) will push this issue into the mainstream news cycle as October gets closer.

[Randy Stankey]

Using integrated memory certainly does have its benefits but the OS needs to know where every byte of data is, at all times. That's one reason why Apple is so specific about the RAM that can be used. Do RAM and CPU really need to be serialized in order to work? I don't know. Probably not. But, as Marco says, doing so cuts down on a lot of variables, any one of which can cause malfunctions. Serializing RAM and CPU lets the OS "know" what resources lie where, without guesswork.

Decades ago, when PCs first came out, their power-on-self-test procedure required plugging random bits of data into every memory location of RAM then reading it back and doing a compare operation. If every bit came back okay, then ROM data would be transferred to RAM and the operating system would load. At the time, competing Macs would simply copy ROM to RAM and do a compare operation between ROM and RAM. It's a lot more efficient and it saves a lot of time... BUT... you need to know where every bit of your ROM and RAM are, at all times. The familiar Macintosh "BONG!" and the "Happy Mac" icons had important meanings that most people didn't understand. The chime meant that your POST completed successfully. The Happy Mac meant that your OS is loading according to plan. If you heard the "Death Chime" or saw a "Sad Mac" icon, you knew that something was wrong and code numbers on the screen would tell you what went wrong.

Only by being very specific about the chips that are used, can Apple do things like this. Yes, PCs do similar things, nowadays but Apple has this way of doing things that are meant to make things simpler at the start. I understand what they are doing and why they do it but I still wonder whether they haven't gone too far with the concept.

There's an old joke: If you make something so simple that even idiot could use it, only an idiot would WANT to use it!

I think Apple is treading too close to that line for my taste.

[Marco Giustini]

Leo
when it comes to RAM, it’s apparently a required feature to have the performance their M series has - which is unmatched by others when it comes to mobility and power efficiency.
RAM on the CPU (which is shared with the GPU) means everything runs faster - but you cannot upgrade. To be fair, my own Lenovo laptop has soldered RAM (to keep it slim) but despite being a pretty powerful machine it just cannot run video editing decently.

when it comes to storage you’re right: there’s no need to keep the SSD soldered on the board - and the Mac mini M4 is a pleasant surprise, I see plenty of update options online.

on the huge task MS has: indeed! Apple removes support to their stuff after about 7 years. It’s so much simpler for a developer not having to worry about old machines, old drivers.

not to mention that even with current HW, it’s all made and sold by Apple so everything is tightly under control and the HW combinations are very limited compared to the billions of combinations (HW *AND* SW!) you get in the PC world.

so while we all dislike Windows, the fact that it can be installed on a 25yo machine in 2025 is a huge effort.

however removing support from old HW allows for innovation, progress and in the end better products. You don’t have to worry about older stuff when developing new software and hardware, you can change things knowing that you don’t have to worry too much. The M series is a testament to that. Apple will keep supporting intel products for a while and then ‘goodbye’.

[Leo Enticknap]

apple charge extortionate prices for RAM and Storage upgrades. With the RAM there’s nothing we can do. With storage, someone has re-created those ‘dumb storage modules’ so you can buy a 2TB module for $300 rather than $800 ?

So Apple are ramping up their "walled garden" approach to prevent consumers from upgrading their Macs using aftermarket RAM and storage. Doesn't surprise me. This has always been their business model (erect significant and technologically unnecessary barriers to repairing and upgrading their products using third party parts and service vendors), and one that Macophiles who like to disparage Microsofties tend to ignore. While I'm no Microsoft fanboy, it has to be acknowledged that the developers of Windows set themselves a formidable challenge: to create and maintain an operating system that has to work reliably on literally millions of hardware combinations and drivers, most of them created by third parties over which M$ has no control. It is therefore no surprise that trying to install a 20-year old driver for a long unsupported film scanner (for example) can provoke W11 into throwing a BSOD. Apple avoids this risk by only supporting a very limited range of hardware peripherals, trying as hard as they can to prevent you from modifying and upgrading anything inside the computer itself, trading on the guaranteed reliability that results, and charging a huge premium for that.

All that having been said, I can see the end of support for W10 turning into a significant political issue as the date gets closer. As the sheer volume of perfectly serviceable hardware that is destined for landfill becomes clear, there is going to be meowing and hissing from certain political quarters. To a certain extent, M$ shot themselves in the foot. What they have done is to not officially condone the circumvention steps that I used as described in the post above, but not make a serious attempt to stop them, either. IMHO, what they should have done is to put a popup on the upgrade or clean install process that says, in effect, "This computer does not meet the minimum hardware standards that W11 was designed for. You may continue to try to install it or upgrade to it, but on your head be it, and you're on your own if anything bad happens."

[Randy Stankey]

Yes, you're right. My MacPro is a Mac-Intel. I would never buy RAM for it from Apple.
Just make sure it has the big heat sinks on it, not those skimpy, little ones they sell for other computers. You might be able to slip by on some of the other specs but heat sinks are important. With smaller heat sinks, yes, it'll run but it won't last. This MacPro certainly can crank out the heat! In the winter, when it gets cold, my cats will lay on the floor next to the computer to keep warm!

You're supposed to use RAM with error correction but, in my computer, you can still use non-ECC. What will happen is, when you get a bit-flip, the kernel will shut that RAM down and you'll lose that memory. The computer will still run. Sometimes you won't even notice. If it does cause any problems, a restart will solve it... until the next time you get a bit-flip.

No, I don't recommend using non-ECC RAM but you can use it in a pinch if you accept the possibility of having occasional glitches.

I understand why they use non-replacable RAM (contiguous memory) but I'd still rather buy my own because I can chose what I need, when I need it, rather than paying somebody else to choose for me.

[Marco Giustini]

I think you might be referring to the old Intel based Apple’s, Randy.

modern ‘apple silicon’ machines have integrated RAM (it lives on the CPU PCB so cannot be upgraded) and the M4 is the first MacMini (with Apple silicon) to have the SSD on a module - but it’s not an SSD, it’s just a dumb module with storage on top.

apple charge extortionate prices for RAM and Storage upgrades. With the RAM there’s nothing we can do. With storage, someone has re-created those ‘dumb storage modules’ so you can buy a 2TB module for $300 rather than $800 ?

[Randy Stankey]

Once you add SSD and RAM then, unfortunately, Apple get silly expensive.

Never buy RAM or storage from Apple! You can always get it cheaper from somebody else!

I hate to sound like a broken record but, again, OWC is where I buy RAM and storage.

[Marco Giustini]

Any of these would be good for basic video editing

That's the thing: the latest M4 Mac Mini can do more than "basic video editing". I edit in 4K with three streams "picture in picture". Granted, I cannot EDIT in 4K, I need to set the timeline to FHD while I work on it and then change to 4K before exporting.
BUT, my own Desktop PC also cannot deal with 4K editing.

IF you think of Apple: MINIMUM 16GB of RAM and STAY AWAY from older intel ones. Just don't. Please. The latest M4 is $599, I'm sure it can be had for a little less during some promotion. It's hard to beat that in the Windows world. Once you add SSD and RAM then, unfortunately, Apple get silly expensive.

[Leo Enticknap]

Just for shits and giggles, I made a doctored W11 v24H2 USB using Rufus (customized not to enforce the hardware requirements on install), and used it to upgrade a Lenovo Thinkcentre M73 that I use as a fileserver/homebrew NAS, with a 2TB SSD in it, for remote access when away from home. It runs Ubuntu most of the time, but is dual bootable into Windows. As the Windows partition is in no way mission critical (as in, I can break it without worrying about it), what the heck. This machine meets all the hardware requirements for W11 24H2 except for not having a TPM 2.0, and is running the latest (and likely final, given that it was released in December 2021) BIOS version.

24H2 appears to run on it with no trouble or complaints. Did some browsing and played some high bandwidth video on VLC, and it appeared to be completely stable.

These machines can be had online used for between $50 and $150, depending on the processor, RAM, and storage it comes with, and whether the embedded Windows license is Home or Pro. Mine was about $50 on Ebay, with a 2.9MHz processor and a Pro license, but no RAM or hard drive. I added 16 GB of RAM for around $30 on Amazon, and the big SSD for $100. But for just general purpose computing, a 500GB SSD for $30-40ish would be more than enough.

Agreed with others above that using a doctored version of W11 on a computer that is in any way mission critical is likely not a good idea. But it can be done, if you don't mind treating it as an experiment. And I suspect that once support for W10 actually ends, the street price of machines such as this one (which is still perfectly good for general purpose computing, in terms of its hardware spec) will plummet.

[Randy Stankey]

If you are interested in a Mac, look at Other World Computing. They sell refurbished computers for a fraction of the price of new.

They sell Mac Minis for under $500. You can find iMacs and Mac Pros, too. I've seen older models for under $100.

Any of these would be good for basic video editing. If you want to make video for full scale production, you'll want to get more but, for home use or for occasional presentation in your theater (ads and snipes) any of these will do the job well, even if they are a little bit older.

I've been looking at the new Studio Macs. They say that the Studio Mac was designed for production work. I've seen 2022-vintage Studio Macs selling for half the price of new ones. I haven't decided, yet, but I watch the website for good deals and, if a good computer shows up, I might get one.

If I had the money, I'd get another Mac Pro but they are out of my price range. The Mac Pro I have now was more expensive than I had planned but, after fifteen years, I think I got a good deal.

The way things are looking, now, it's probably going to be a used/refurbished Studio Mac for me.

[Marco Giustini]

Thanks, Frank. I use it for graphics and video. My main software is Adobe After Effects and Photoshop. I need a multi-core CPU and at least 16GB of RAM. I don't plan on using the latest Windows offering. Early versions are fine.

Video editing unfortunately will require "as much as you can get" - that said, you don't need the latest and greatest to put together a good computer.

First - if you don't mind me asking - what is your budget?
Ignore Mark, you don't want to mess with windows 11's restrictions. Any PC which is incompatible with Windows 11 is probably not suitable for video editing!

in AMD area, an older 5000 series is still a very good one and I think those are cheap now. They're only 30% slower than the "latest and greatest". I'm not an intel fan at the moment so I cannot recommend.
RAM is cheap - particularly DDR4.
A good video card is paramount for video editing: again, you don't need a series 5000 or 4000. A 3000 or even 2000 series would do - make sure you get a video card with plenty of VRAM. A 3060 with 12GB is probably a good one. I am not too familiar with AMD video cards.

As you can see I am not mentioning big brands - I think if you invest a little time you can put together your own PC without paying extra for the brands - which give you nothing more.

One other option - depending on your budget or your needs: the latest Mac Mini M4 is simply amazing for video editing. With $599 you get a powerhouse. Granted, it's much slower than my PC in rendering the videos (though I am rendering 4K complex videos) but when it comes to editing, it's actually faster than my Windows PC! It's a very sleek experience - and no, I am not an Apple fan!
The silly 256GB SSD can be overcome in two ways: a fast external SSD *OR* they now sell after-market 2TB SSDs for like $250 which can replace the internal Apple one without paying the $800 Apple ask for the 2TB upgrade.

I hope this helps!